Keepers of Fortitude - Saryrn / Bertoxxulous

There has been quite a lot said about the healing classes being overpowered, especially in PvP. They just recently nerfed the Sorcerers as well. I haven't tried the Disciple class myself, I'm just not a Martial arts enthusiast. Apparently there is quite a firestorm over the changes there.

I've only played the game 2 days, so I really haven't seen some of the big issues. The game is very hardware intensive, there are bugs, basically overall it's about as I expected. It looks VERY much like a marriage of EQ1 and WoW. The game play is much like EQ, yet you have mailboxes, auctions, tombstones etc. I never bothered with EQ2, but this looks and feels like I would have expected EQ2 to be.

So far, and I admit I am willingly paying to Beta test this product, it is no where near as polished and professional product as what Blizzard puts out. The writing, the plots, the gear in WoW is just better put together. WoW is a very well made game.

WoW suffers because it is so intuitive, because it's not as hardware intensive, it draws in every middle class teenage boy in the western world. I was a miserable, smart assed, cocky punk as a teenager. For the most part, through the passage of time, and a few tough lessons, I'm better behaved now. I don't need to see a bunch of punk kids reminding me of how much of a jerk I was, or how gloriously they are carrying the banner on.

Just like people who have quit smoking, can't stand to be around smokers.

If there was an adult only private server, I would reconsider WoW. Yeah, that's something I would have loved in EQ as well. Of course, it would probably turn into the Porn server and would suck just as much.

OK, how about a Rated "R" server, no kids, no hard core porn. Hell, make it the Over 30 server, that might work.

I haven't seen a bunch of kids on Vanguard yet. I haven't ventured far from the newbie area yet, really haven't seen all that many folks at all. I'm hoping the hardware limitations will keep some of the kids out, we'll see.

On the plus side, they are patching just about every other day. They are quashing bugs at a furious pace. When I look at the patch notes, I'm amazed at how much they fix at every patch. That was one of the things that sorta got me to try the game. Reading through the patch notes, seeing how much and how often they were working on the game impressed me.

In raising kids, and in many aspects of life in general, I try not to focus on what's wrong right this very second, but rather what direction it's heading. Are we trending positive? Are things improving? At this point, it appears like Vanguard is moving in the right direction.

I'm hoping that the pressure of having paying customers is going to keep them motivated. (trying to make lemonade here)

from http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=1946

this is typical of brad and the old eq. post launch, big changes that aren't fully tested.  how does he get away with doing things like this with people paying subscription fees?  in beta, you could break a class and  ignore the inevitable whines because they were guests playing for free, but now people have money at stake.

quoted here because it probably won't last on official boards.

QuoteIt's quite funny for me to post here since it looks like this forum is not for gameplay feedback, although the GM who answered my petition sent me there. So now i'm here i post anyway, mainly because i prefer to post on an official forum instead of a fan site, even if Sigil doesn't want to and prefer to close the forum.

Well, first, let me point out that english is not my main language so, my apologies if i make too much grammar/spelling mistakes.

Now let's move to the subject of the topic. As usual, we had a broadcast message saying they will patch and the server will be down, during peaktime of course (for US players this time). Not a big deal, since almost every patches are either during european or US peak times.

Then i just read the patch notes, with the hope to see any important bug fixed (invisible mobs, mobs that flee through walls or half the chunk, crashes, and any of the other 14963872 bugs that we can meet everyday (this number is not accurate, i probably forgot one or two of them :p ). But nothing, instead, they began to swing the nerf bat and of course it went on the disciple.

I expected that, we were too poxerful, so i was quite happy and hoped the game would be more balanced. Then i logged in.

Oh. My. God.

These changes are probably the worst thing that has been done for a while. Not only did it remove all the fun of the class itself, it didn't remove the ability to solo 4 dots mobs or purple con mobs.

Let's explain that a bit for all non disciple here (and probably the dev who made that, i doubt he logged in a disciple for 5Min to see how broken it is now).

The gameplay before was based on the critical hits while bare handed. With them we could get our chains off, mainly Falling petal that proc a 5Min buff that adds to healing on target, as well as doing fair damage. It's in fact our only offensive skill that is worth the effort to use. Our base melee attack, sadly, has no anim nor does it display damage from the first upgrade to the last one i got (lvl 17 on my first disciple, lvl 13 on my second). The others are a detaunt (poor damage, but low end, used for jin mainly and, well, detaunt), a kick that used jin, and our Blessed wind that does poor damage but proc a heal over time on us. Well, it should be on our defensive target but it works only on us, quite worthless for a healer unless when soloing.

Now, critical hits are gone, not a "slight" decrease, as stated in the patch note, but more of a 50% decrease based on what i can see in facts. I now barely crit every 3 or 4 fights, yay ! I can't even keep the falling petal buff on my defensive target.

That alone cuts our dps A LOT. Fine, i'm a healer, i didn't play this class for dps, ok.

But on top of that, our heals were nerfed too. Our chain is now pointless, by the time it gets off, if my target needed a heal, it's now dead, and the heal itself is barealy enough to help anyway. Blessed wind is the best: end cost increased, healing descreased. Great ! It's now totally useless. It costs half my end for a heal that will do nothing at all, and that only works on me.

If that wasn't enough, i now miss a lot more.

So the result is there. I can still kill a purple 2 dot mob or a white 4 dot mobs, but now even a botting program could do it since i only need to use 2 or 3 skills to win. it went from a fun class to play, with many different styles and chain, to just turn on auto attack, then spam detaunt for jin, heal sometimes, and that's it. The only challenging thing now is trying not to fall asleep with fights, because even on a blue 2 dot mobs, it takes a while to kill. I mean it's long. Try killing anything with auto attack only. See ? That's it ! Simply because all my skills are broken or do LESS damage than my auto attack. And it's not the crit that happens every 50 hits that will make a difference.

Now i would like the dev who made this change, to seriously, i mean, seriously, try to play the game right now as a disciple. And maybe, try to think that sometimes, a little change in an excel file makes a HUGE difference in game. A difference that should be tested, by internal testers as well as players, then only if it's ok, should be pushed on live server. Because this stupid (and i try to stay polite) lack of any testing or thinking when doing change, just broke a class that was overpowered, i admit it, to what ? The same overpowered class, except now it's not FUN at all.

So yes, i can say that here, you totally missed your point with this patch. You can nerf again disciple. HEY ! I'm still soloing 4 dots. Guess what ? It's not a challenge, it's not fun, it's time consuming, but i can do it and realize every day i log in how this game is now bugged, not balanced, and not fun at all.

If you want to live the bugs as they are (i report the same bugs for one month now, 3 of them on my disciple skills), then it's ok. Balance is what it is and should have some minor tweaks. But if you now want to remove the rare things that made this game enjoyable through its current early beta stage, then i hope you're ready to lose some of your paying beta tes... i mean, customers.

I know this isn't a big surprise to the few that still come by here, nor to my wife, but I'm coming to the realization that something is wrong with me.

I've had a few days off. I've been reading different forums in regards to Vanguard, gathering the information (thanks Ching to the link in the previous post). Hell, I'm reading patch notes, and class guides to a game I don't even play.

I've read Ching's post twice ( I hope your friend/family or whomever you had to visit is doing well), and recognize he is much more deeply involved in MMORPG's that I am, and has better insights into the what makes for a good game than I do.

I know I don't like the whole Beta experience. I've done it before, and I don't like dealing with buggy software, even if I get compensated for it. Vanguard is basically in what should be described as a Pay to Beta phase.

I don't like SoE's customer service.

I do like Team PvP, yet that appears to be broken in Vanguard atm.

Yet, I still went out and bought Vanguard. I haven't installed it yet, it's sitting in a bag next to my desk. Why am I looking at that bag, and even considering installing it????

It's like a train wreck in slow motion. I can see it coming, I know it's going to be ugly, but I can't seem to take my eyes off of it.

They say the first step is recognizing you have a problem. If it took me this long to recognize it, how long is it going to take me to get to the next step?

UGH!

I know it felt like a long post, and frankly in all the time I've known you, That is the longest post I can recall. It's still good info, and it's nice to see.

I'm moving over to the other, and more importantly, correct topic.

started a staggering rant here.

Starting a new thread because i might ramble on a bit!

My decision to hold off on Vanguard wasn't made with a great deal of personal experience with it. I logged on during the last few weeks of beta and it was sluggish on my system. Slow enough that I didn't care to go beyond level 3.  Video lag in the newbie are is just not acceptable.  I think Brad has great goals with the look of his game, but it's just unbelievable that something 1 week from release would have choppy audio playback at the character CREATION screens.

While I didn't play the beta all that much, I've kept up with some forums that tend to be more critical of Brad, and every other new game, but the forum crowd is something that should be used as a guideline more than something used as a final arbitor on a purchasing decision.  FoH is one of those communities that has been around for years, and is filled with posters that cross the spectrum of gaming, from jaded EQ beta types who learned to love/hate Brad in 1999, to the relatively new group that got into the market because of SWG/WoW and now Vanguard.  The general tone of the threads there is usually mature and honest criticism, but the modern gaming/internet world is filled with people (or pseudo people) that have an agenda behind their words.  It's good to read just to get an idea of what to look out for as you play, especially from a non-company source.

I have conflicting emotions about Brad and what he's done in EQ (and EQ2 to a lesser extent), and what he thinks about this sort of game.  I'm sure we all remember "The Vision" and how it's a great thing in press releases and web site blurbs, but how unfun it is to live under it in a virtual world.  When most of us started playing EQ, we were not trailblazers who consumed content at breakneck speed.  I started in March 2001, three months after Velious hit the market.  The journey from level 1 was fun, and most of us didn't care all that much about levelling as fast as possible, because the guild connection and a relatively plentiful server population made the slow level curve bearable.  We played in blissful ignorance not knowing that much of the high end raid content in Velious wasn't ready for players.

A great thing about these games is that the definition of 'beginning' and 'end' are left entirely to the player.  For the most part, someone can start years later and each game is new and fresh.  I've repeatedly read that Vanguard eventually takes away the ability to progress without grouping, and I think that's a tragic miscalculation based on what I saw happen in EQ.  Sometime in Luclin, EQ added the soulbinders in the original starting towns because they were mostly abandoned as people relocated to the moon. With Luclin self contained, nobody had much reason to visit the old towns besides the North Freeport market, and what was killed off with the bazaar.  My point about this is that over 5 years ago, EQ was forced to put features into the game to accomodate the new player, and that forced interdependence (getting a caster class to travel out of their way to the West Freeport gate to give a level 5 a bind) just isn't viable on a long term basis.  It's a lofty goal, but as we move forward in gaming, it just doesn't hold up.  Populations shift, newbie areas initially overrun with hundreds of people are empty, leaving the true newbie frustrated that they can't progress.  The average gamer is not some teenager with the free time to stand around sending tells to random strangers in order to beg for help.

Vanguard's initial design and early beta had all of the worst that EQ had to offer. Key highlights were corpse runs, lack of solo or small group options for tangible advancement, lengthy travel, and did I mention corpse runs?! I think Brad's ideas make for great copy, but fail to translate into an environment where people go to escape difficulty, and to be 'heroic' for a time.  There is nothing heroic in mechanisms that frustrate the player.  Corpse runs might have some rewarding factor, but I think it's a mechanic that should stay in our collective pasts, where EQ players can remind the new punks about their 'wasted' hours on Saturday afternoons rebreaking the Plane of Hate because some fool went too close to the north wall of the entry room.

Whoa, be glad I had to go visit someone in the hospital, or this might have been much longer!

Ultimately, players have demonstrated a willingness to tolerate some seriously flawed releases from Brad in the past.  My brief flirtation with beta was enough to tell me that he was going to do more fixing with subscription revenues rather than deliver a more polished product.  I understand that these online games are never done, but with 4 years of development, the people who pre-ordered the game shouldn't be getting screwed with server bugs and daily restarts.  What a great benefit for the early access they were given before the official 1/30 release date.

I'd wager that Vanguard will only get better as it ages, and might replace EQ2 as the best game of the genre that I'll never play.

Wow, yeah I know, bad pun, but even still.

I respect your opinion quite a bit Ching, and that's a pretty damning indictment of Vanguard. I've dug around some more on the Ten Ton Hammer website, and it seemed like they had made significant progress in making Vanguard playable. That and you get non stop bashing of WoW there as well (on the Vanguard forums). I really enjoyed playing WoW, I just got to the point that I couldn't stand the dominance of a bunch of prepubescent teens.

Well, I'm going to keep an eye on Vanguard, although it will be an even more cynical eye than usual.

Let us ( all 4 of us) know how the WoW expansion goes.

Zax

i bought the wow expansion and decided to skip vanguard.

Ok, I'm slow. The board went plain graphics again, and no promo trailer. Actually it's been like that the last few times I checked by, and I just now figured it out.

So now Vanguard has been out a few days. I read quite a bit on some of the various forums, but I haven't read any of them since launch. How did it go?

I upgraded my video card and RAM, so in theory, I should be able to run it now, just waiting to see if I should bother.

You know I tried a PVP character on EQ2 and actually found it very exciting at times.  On WoW I haven't gone that route yet... we'll see :)