OMG big news

[Kazaba]

Nerfs, woo hoo, verant has been listening to me.

Seriously, the cleric change seems like more of a preemptive strike, looking to the amount of Hit points an uber PoP equipped Warrior will have, and I think Verant is wise to make it now rather then later.  The way they are nerfing Manaburn is pretty wise (i.e. giving back the points and making the new skill still pretty attractive, but less prone to being unbalancing).

I really don't have enough experience with either uber-monks or T-rods, so I won't comment except to say that you know they won't get the monks defense right and it will be ping ponging up and down for the next year or so.

[chingerz]

Originally posted by Kamok
Furthermore, to even compare monk defenses on the same imbalancing field as manaburn and unlimited mana is absurd.  If VI thinks that the monk "vision" is not what they intended, it is only because they made it that way by including items that appear to be for monks because of the low weight.  The items are what are making the monk overpowered and not the defensive capabilities.  The items that are in question are the ones that on the uberest monks could ever obtain.  I for one will never see flayed barbarian skin legs or other items that are rediculous in stats.  

The items are the hardest thing to change, though.   Verant really made a big mistake when they let the legs from Avatar of War into the game.

Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings  By comparison, the best legs for a warrior in Velious were 46AC, 50hp.

Changing all of the old items to effect the change they want is much harder than altering the way that gear works when equipped.

Take a look at Vandrick, HnE's best equipped monk. Of his 20 loot slots, only 6 are All/All.  Several are monk/beastlord only, but many are usable by chain and plate classes as well.  Changing the more general items will adversely affect the other classes that can equip those items, defeating the purpose of their mission to knock monks down a bit.

[chingerz]

Originally posted by Kamok
On a side note how often does a monk tank for HnE?

On every mob that rampages, a monk taking those hits is preferred to a plate class.  When the melee is 1000+ per hit, getting hit less frequently is a big factor!

Don't think of it as tanking as in standing in front of the mob taking direct melee. Monks generally don't equip weapons that have taunt procs, so they won't be able to hold aggro.  Can't truly tank if you can't keep the mob's attention.

[Kamok]

But the fact remains that it is much easier for a war to get 1000 ac than a monk and even then the war has more hp's than a monk.  I see the best equipped monk in HnE but what about the best warrior and if that monk is so on par with warriors why doesn't he tank the high end mobs?  The armor is limited for monks and the high end armor is amazing but very very few monks will ever get that armor is all I am saying and to penalize the majority of the monks who can't get it is stupid.  It is the items that make the monk overpowering not the defensive capabilities.  I am speaking from my experience as a monk who has played for 2 years and still has not gotten anything ubuer.  I play for fun and am not a power gamer and now I am being penalized.

Part of what made me make a monk was the fact that I could pull and that I could solo if I wanted too, granted it takes some skill to do but is doable.  I am wondering now if I will be able to solo efficiently and if I can't do that I am going to be very dissappointed b/c I have put about 2 years into my monk and sure as hell don't want to start over b/c all of a sudden verant decides to change the so called 'vision' of what a monk's role is.

[chingerz]

Originally posted by Tonzafun IndyJok
I agree with the changes as well and think they need to nerf Paladins and SK's as well. They can tank every bits as well as a warrior which is just silly.:D

That's not true at all.  Pal/SK hold aggro more easily than a warrior via spells, but knight defensive abilities are capped lower than a warrior.  Depends on how you want to interpret 'tank' with a wild accusation like that.  Is it holding aggro, or taking damage efficiently?

Warriors suck at holding aggro because taunt is worthless and broken on high end mobs. Verant needs to do something about this.  Relying on procs from weapons to hold aggro is so lame.  Warriors should have innate ability to make mobs angry at them, above and beyond taunt skill.

As for taking damage, warriors do it better because they have higher skill caps in parry/dodge/riposte than a knight, as well as useful disciplines.

[chingerz]

Originally posted by Kamok
But the fact remains that it is much easier for a war to get 1000 ac than a monk and even then the war has more hp's than a monk.  I see the best equipped monk in HnE but what about the best warrior and if that monk is so on par with warriors why doesn't he tank the high end mobs?

Here's the profile of HnE's warrior with the most hp.

Aorin

Aorin gets close to 7900 hp with raid buffs, but look at his AC. It's 100 lower than Vandrick.  I would say monks don't main tank because they don't have weapons to hold aggro, and they DO have less hp than a warrior.  Warriors also have their useful disciplines of defensive and evasive.

[chingerz]

What's special about a monk getting to 1000 AC? Do monks not get a bonus to their AC, such that 900 AC monk acts closer to the 1000AC warrior?  Just picking numbers here....

The system is broken for more than just monks. Perhaps this is just the first adjustment.

[chingerz]

Here's an example of rampage from my logs.

[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra goes on a RAMPAGE!
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra was hit by non-melee for 15 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra hits YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra was hit by non-melee for 15 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra hits YOU for 934 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra was hit by non-melee for 15 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra hits YOU for 934 points of damage.
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Tue Sep 24 22:08:26 2002] Aten Ha Ra tries to hit YOU, but misses!

Rampage is weird stuff in Luclin.  I was off healing clerics from mod rods, then suddenly Aten is wailing on me. Lame!

Notice that she's doing 5 attacks on me in a single round there. I was lucky to avoid two of them that time, but this is the sort of thing where monks are more appropriate today.  Having Aten miss more often is 900+ hp that doesn't need to be healed.

This discussion of melee in fights could all be moot when they change the encounters as a result of the mod rod change.

[Zaxboan]

Manaburn was unbalancing, pure and simple. No other class could assemble a single group even with top aa skills and KS entire raids.

The other issues, aside from the t-rods, I really don't know enough about to have a definitive opinion. Some of it sorta makes sense, some of it smells like crapola.

I'm still mulling over the t-rod issue. I can try to shed some light on it, but I doubt I will be able to provide any great insight.

The change is almost certainly to some degree a response from the Mage community. Now whether the mages that complained represented the majority is another story. The fact that mages are not having fun at the end game doesn't concern me for a second.

Will this fix somehow change the way mages fight at big encounters? Will the rest of their guild suddenly gain insight into what a mage does?

Mages being turned into nothing more than mana fountains is a screw up on more than one front. The mage boards are full of posts of guys/gals that are begging to be mana fountains. Personally I think they are just as stupid as the mages that whine about being forced into that role.

I have no intention of doing nothing but dropping rods at any encounter unless I really want to do that. If the encounter is that screwed up, and I don't want to just drop rods, then I'll find something else to do. If that means I miss all the super neato gee whizz boss mobs in luclin, then C'est la vie.

VI doesn't like the way the uber guilds are fighting the uber mobs?
Ask me if I really give a crap. Then find a way to address the problem without effecting the way the other 95% of us that play the game.

Personally I see it as a nerf, for much the same reason as Kamok's complaint. There are so many other ways to address the problems with the very high end game, that this approach seems particularly poorly thought out or perhaps lazy.

But who knows, it could all change again in a week, including my opinion.

[Saiferus]

my problem with the monk fix is they are trying to fix problems with twinks and high end monk and in the proess people who have a monk as there first character aka main are being screwed to as stated monk can only carry x wt. so for thous people its kinda hard to get good equipment making it even hard on the new monks that arent twinked.

[Kamok]

I understand that example and I don't have any facts to back up my argument nor am I going to get some b/c it wouldn't make a difference.  All I am saying is that the monks that this nerf targets are the minority of monks.  The monk and the war that you have used as examples are great examples supporting a nerf but how many monks on any server are that well equipped?

I just don't like how the majority of the monks on every server are going to be hindered b/c of the equipment of a select few on each server.  

I wish that VI would simply put more thought into their actions and think of the reprocussions on the majority of the EQ community and not just the very high end game people.  The game is different for every person and I am not in it for the uber loot and I chose to play a monk for reasons that are now slowly being taken away.  If I would have known 2 years ago that my defensive capabilities would have been lowered and therefore I could not solo when I needed too I would have played a different character.  I just get so frustrated with VI and people who cry out for nerfs to suit their needs when their needs are not the needs of the majority of the people who play the game.

[Soulstar]

It hurt to admit it, but when trist was around, he was a better tank than me, even before he was 60.  I think the changes are reasonably appropriate, but we'll have to see just how far they go.

[Saiferus]

/rant
NOTE: I have never seen VI nerf enchanters CUZ WE SUCK!!!!!! as is our mana abilities are becoming useless as more and more mobs become unmezzable unstunable uncharmable and hmmm with flowing thought items and mana pumping necro and mod rod shaman haste and slow who the heck needs us. so you can feel a little better know your still be better than someone.

/rant off

[Airelyn]

I think what people need to do is wait and see how the changes really affect you.

I still fully agree with the monk change, but that is just me.

[Kamok]

Yeah I can't complain too much until I actually log in and see how it effects me.  I do know that I could solo the entrance to the hole before; and I logged there last night thinking that I could come back to the xp grinding.  So lets see how well I can solo a mob that I could solo before the nerf.